Very interesting! I see the exact same mentality in my field (chemistry), particularly at the faculty level. I don't think it's an easy question and perhaps we need to step back further and ask why men and women have such different approaches. This could then lead to answering how to bridge the gap. There's a really interesting book out there called "Why so Slow" by Virginia Valian. It's asking why has the advancement of women in science been so slow despite increased enrollment in higher education. She introduces a concept called gender schemas.. that we (men and women) have these gender biases that subconsciously affect our decisions which in turn can affect expectations and attitudes. I won't review the whole book but worth a look.

yeah tech is still lame and women are discouraged in math and science from the very beginning.

Check out this HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux

www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encou...-Linux-HOWTO

Gary

Hi. I just joined this tribe, hope it's cool to revive an almost year-old subject.

There are many issues to consider here - for one thing, remember that the programming/cs fields are not representative of all technological fields, and in many cases provide 'exceptions to the rules'. The culture, history and work environments vary a great deal. For example, dealing with a group of 25-or-so year old male Linux programmers is entirely different than dealing with a group of 60 year old male engine mechanics. Computer science is relatively new and primarily white collar, plus most people in the cs fields consider 2 years at a job to be "long term". I'm a mechanical engineer - most people I work with have been at their jobs for 15 or more years, and the average age is probably about 50 years old. In some ways there are old sexist stereotypes in play, but really there are other more pressing issues. Such as, stress and animosity between engineers and maintenance or 'blue collar' tech staff at my company. If people are going to be biased against me, it's more likely because I'm an engineer than because I'm a woman. My "rite of passage" here (hey "right of passage" is an amusing error - or was it intentional?) was surviving a verbal beat-down by an old curmudgeon who I now have an excellent working relationship with. Everyone went through the same crap with him, not just the women here.

Anyway another thing to consider, especially with cs or programming groups, is that most of these people never had experience or education with socialization. Zero social skills is not just a funny stereotype! It really manifests, especially when a community is so young and inexperienced in the "real world", and when "real world" experience is so brief, moving from place to place, mostly surrounded by one's peer group. Sure there are plenty of sexists around, but a lot of times what may appear to be sexism is really just a complete lack of social skills. (Not that that's excusable, it just shifts the focus from "us v. them" to "what a bunch of idiots".)

My personal preference is to avoid focusing on "are things different for men and women"? The world is changing too quickly to say "this is how things are, period." And generalizations tend to contribute to the divide. Instead, tell me about *specific experiences* that you need to work through. Like, you had a problem with one Linux group, then you found a good Linux group. No need to generalize that all male Linux programmers share the attitude of the men from that one (or few) group(s). Also, you ask if there are different "rights of passage" for men and women. Well let me ask you this - do you think there should be? Do you want to be treated as a female programmer, or do you want to be treated like a programmer?

For me personally, my gender has never interfered with my career as far as I know. If it has, I'm oblivious to it, and I don't care cause I'm where I want to be. I just act as if there is nothing wrong. Perhaps willfull ignorance, but it works for me. I never want to be treated like a female engineer, because my gender is completely irrelevent. I am an engineer, period. I have my particular style, maybe influenced by my gender, but also influenced by other things like where I'm from, where I went to school, what my interests are. Treat me like an engineer, not like an engineer with tits. Isn't that the whole point?

Plus, I don't think the sink or swim mentality is based on gender, I think it's based on career, field, particular employer or community. I've met plenty of men who've helped me go from "new" to "advanced" - if only women helped women, there would be *no women in the technical fields*.

Hope this wasn't too all-over-the-place or harsh or anything like that. Very interesting topics, I hope more people talk about their experiences...

Another book on this subject that I read at the urging of my mother:

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...858-9392905

I'm a soon-to-be science educator, the idea that we teach boys and girls differently scares me. It terrifies me that I'll fall into that trap because its easier and do the same as was done to me.

From the Technology standpoint of S&T, I've been in the technical side of public safety land-mobile communications for 29 years at this point ...

My observations on "right of passage" are the following:

When breaking into this non-traditional field in 1976 as a communications technician what I ran up against was the implied requirement to "prove my abilities" to the guys in the shop.

I'm sure this is a common experience that others on this tribe have run into, however even after several years, and promoting to network-level maintenance responsibilities in the early 1980's, that there was still an implied requirement to prove my abilities to those that did not know me....

I started out as an entry-level communications technician with a /\/\otorola Service Station (MSS) and was the first woman communications tech (that I'm aware of) in the Silicon Valley area at that time ...

I received 3 raises in my first 6 months, and once the guys realized that I could actually trouble-shoot and repair equipment, and that I wasn't simply a "token minority hire" , I generated some level of respect from them....

Since then, I've been with two public safety agencies, and now manage the two-way radio communications program with a large municipality ... I've been in management for about 7 years, and also have a maintenance and semi-engineering facility with a staff of eight ...

On the men vs women approach, I really think that men spend an inordinate amount of time trying to "win" (whatever that means), as oppposed to people cooperating and working as an efficient team ... I think that for a lot of guys, they get hung up on the idea of asking for assistance and usually won't. The result is longer down-time for comms networks sometimes...

Elaine ..